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The Side Room Off topic chat about pretty much anything other than music. Try to be respectful. Strong debate is welcomed, insults and trolling are not. This area is for over 18's only and may occasionally contain NSFW material, although it's not encouraged.

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Old 07-12-2014, 08:47 PM   #21
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Re: I don't think there should be a big debate around genre's and labels.

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The only reason I bring this up is because there's a phenomenon on Youtube where the general fans always get into great arguments over the specifics of the songs label.

Then there is the more immediate and personal issue. A lot of the time when I share my music with labels, their reply is that my music is good but it doesn't fit a specific genre.
They tell me they're going to send my music to a mastering engineer and I tell them that goes against my principles as an artist. I don't really believe in it. Most of the time they can't handle that.


I know that sounds crazy but I've gotten that a lot. We can argue over my principles, or the semantics of it all but the point is a lot of the time your music needs to "fit" in a "box" so to speak, in order to get any traction for maximum feedback potential (that's what you want right? Or just leave it all to never be heard).

I'm simply addressing that issue and asking what you guys think. Just wanted to clarify that.
This is how it always has been since the beginning of time. Now we have technology instead of handmade drums hit with animal bones. There is always an argument.

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Old 07-12-2014, 08:48 PM   #22
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Re: I don't think there should be a big debate around genre's and labels.

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a lot of the time your music needs to "fit" in a "box" so to speak.

U mean like an iPod?

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Old 07-12-2014, 09:20 PM   #23
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Re: I don't think there should be a big debate around genre's and labels.

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U mean like an iPod?

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Old 07-12-2014, 09:28 PM   #24
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Re: I don't think there should be a big debate around genre's and labels.

You can find music without labels and stuff. It's mostly about knowing who made it, and who influenced them.. don't you think?

You have a discussion about music on the street, and it's cool.

You do it online, you get funny pictures and stuff. Totally different experience haha. Picture sharing forum person. Looking for topics all day long. Like the Batman of memes. Just looking for the right topic, 'soon I'll find a topic out there that this meme will go with... some day... some day.'

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Old 07-12-2014, 09:37 PM   #25
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Re: I don't think there should be a big debate around genre's and labels.

I don't think anyone is dismissing your discussion. But really what is there to discuss? Art/music is a personal artistic decision, which ultimately is subjective. Most people from this forum anyway seem to embrace that aspect.
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Old 07-12-2014, 09:47 PM   #26
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Re: I don't think there should be a big debate around genre's and labels.

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I don't think anyone is dismissing your discussion. But really what is there to discuss? Art/music is a personal artistic decision, which ultimately is subjective. Most people from this forum anyway seem to embrace that aspect.
Well that's pretty cool then.
It's a good aspect, or view to have...

I wasn;t dissing this place, implying you guys had a problem. Just the greater scene possibly has a problem. A consumerist problem.

But yeah. I can see how it came across that way.

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Old 07-12-2014, 10:02 PM   #27
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Re: I don't think there should be a big debate around genre's and labels.

Why do you "fundamentally disagree" with mastering?

I've seen one other guy say this and it's something I can't quite understand.

That's a debate worth having I think.

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Old 08-12-2014, 09:15 AM   #28
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Re: I don't think there should be a big debate around genre's and labels.

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Why do you "fundamentally disagree" with mastering?

I've seen one other guy say this and it's something I can't quite understand.

That's a debate worth having I think.
Yeah definitely.

The main worth of the mastering industry now is more about getting a track to sound louder.

I think that most mix engineers after about 10 years can get a fairly clear sound, the mastering just takes it to the extreme. It's definitely a subjective thing, because studies have actually shown people have learned to really like this sound.

However, other studies have shown that fatiguing can happen really quickly and make an audience sort of disinterested. Even if they really like the performer, or the subject matter. If it's played exceedingly loudly, the ear losing focus and thus becomes disinterested.

I learned this in college but don't have access to the articles anymore.

A lot of mastering was done decades ago to help with the needle not skipping off the record. That is an obsolete limitation now and mastering has taken on a new role.

This new role could be beneficial in some way. However, I think most of the pressure of a ME is to get the track as loud as possible - which I argue is unnecessary and only serves to degrade audio integrity and limit the imagination of producers who know they're working in such tight constraints.

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Old 08-12-2014, 07:03 PM   #29
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Re: I don't think there should be a big debate around genre's and labels.

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Yeah definitely.

I think it's a bit of an outdated practice. The main worth of the mastering industry now is more about getting a track to sound louder.

I think that most mix engineers after about 10 years can get a fairly clear sound, the mastering just takes it to the extreme. It's definitely a subjective thing, because studies have actually shown people have learned to really like this sound.

However, other studies have shown that fatiguing can happen really quickly and make an audience sort of disinterested. Even if they really like the performer, or the subject matter. If it's played exceedingly loudly, the ear losing focus and thus becomes disinterested.

I learned this in college but don't have access to the articles anymore.

A lot of mastering was done decades ago to help with the needle not skipping off the record. That is an obsolete limitation now and mastering has taken on a new role.

THis new role could be beneficial in some way. However, I think most of the pressure of a ME is to get the track as loud as possible - which I argue is unnecessary and only serves to degrade audio integrity and limit the imagination of producers who know they're working in such tight constraints.

Mastering also helps certain (usually bass) frequencies sound more robust. It's not just for the purpose of making a recording louder. The difference between a mastered and unmastered mix is night and day if you have it done by a mastering engineer who knows what he's doing. And if anything, albums were less mastered "back in the day."

It's also done for the purpose of making a song a bit less dynamic, so that when you're listening to it in an environment with a lot of background noise (i.e. everywhere except your nice quiet cozy apartment) the softer tones don't get lost and the louder parts don't blow your eardrums out. If anything, the fact that you haven't lost all your hearing is probably due to mastering. Don't listen to your music at such high volumes, instead fiddle with your EQ. It helps the listening experience sometimes.

How old are you?
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Old 08-12-2014, 07:43 PM   #30
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Re: I don't think there should be a big debate around genre's and labels.

[QUOTE=DoctaMario;1296895]Mastering also helps certain (usually bass) frequencies sound more robust. It's not just for the purpose of making a recording louder. The difference between a mastered and unmastered mix is night and day if you have it done by a mastering engineer who knows what he's doing."

You can listen to mastered music compared to unmastered music by just listening to tracks on social networks. Or artists who don't produce music for any particular market and release on creative commons. There are even some artists releasing commercial tracks unmastered. It's less fatiguing. Definitely night and day. My argument in this debate as it were, is that the difference, this "night/day" you speak of, isn't necessarily "good."

Think about that for a moment. Not good, or bad.

It's a fairly simple premise. It's definitely subjective, but my objective understanding I guess comes from comparing vibes and crowds while dj'ing.

This robustness of bass is also a fallacy. You make music and mix it to sound the way you want. If you want robust bass, you implement robust bass. If the particular section or entire song doesn't call for robust bass, you simply do not implement it.

Cool to see different opinions on the matter

I can't really say much more on this. It seems inflammatory to the ME trade. Which is an outstanding technical trade, squeezing all those db's in there. I feel bad for ME's like Bob Katz. He often talks about trying to get artists to compress less.

I still think there is a role for ME's, it's a vital aspect of audio. It's just lost it's direction. Artists choose the direction and the ME takes it there and I think the artist is choosing something weird, something loud for maximum feedback potential. But sacrificing clarity and subtle complexity for it. Making it a bit narcissistic.

Not even intentionally, just that everyone else is doing it

peace

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Old 08-12-2014, 07:47 PM   #31
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Re: I don't think there should be a big debate around genre's and labels.

Re: Mastering is just for loudness in 2K14 ...

...something I've been thinking about lately having to do with the loudness war is how amps and speakers have evolved...and I'm not talking all component stereos here...in fact not talking those at all...

Tons of music today is played through weak amps with high THD and then through small/bad speakers with poor frequency response.

RFJ told me about a copy of a vinyl he had/has from...I think...an 80s band of fame and the cover of the album said something about the record had been recorded in such a fashion so it could be listened to loud. Presumably, most home stereo amps of the 80s had way more balls than a laptop or smartphone amp.

Is part of the increase in loudness due to listening devices not having the power to push the music to a decent listening level, so everything has to be heavily limited and compressed to be heard "properly" ?

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Old 08-12-2014, 07:56 PM   #32
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Re: I don't think there should be a big debate around genre's and labels.

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Re: Mastering is just for loudness in 2K14 ...

Is part of the increase in loudness due to listening devices not having the power to push the music to a decent listening level, so everything has to be heavily limited and compressed to be heard "properly" ?
That's interesting.

In most ME's studios you'll find shitty Apple earbuds and they say they use Apple laptop speakers in the A/B setup. Because yeah, that's what everyone uses these days for the most part. Unless you live in a 24/7 festival.

Crap speakers and amps in 2014. I wonder if that's some materialization of a lack of respect for the art of music in general society?

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Old 08-12-2014, 08:01 PM   #33
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Re: I don't think there should be a big debate around genre's and labels.

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You can listen to mastered music compared to unmastered music by just listening to tracks on social networks. Or artists who don't produce music for any particular market and release on creative commons. There are even some artists releasing commercial tracks unmastered. It's less fatiguing. Definitely night and day. My argument in this debate as it were, is that the difference, this "night/day" you speak of, isn't necessarily "good."

Think about that for a moment. Not good, or bad.

It's a fairly simple premise. It's definitely subjective, but my objective understanding I guess comes from comparing vibes and crowds while dj'ing.

This robustness of bass is also a fallacy. I don't know if you make music, but you make it and mix it to sound the way you want. If you want robust bass, you implement robust bass. If the particular section or entire song doesn't call for robust bass, you simply do not implement it. And to take it away to get mastered, and have that suddenly injected into your creation, is a strange notion to me.

You can, of course tell the ME you don't want that.
But then that brings us in a circle to the original premise. what's the point?

Cool to see different opinions on the matter

I can't really say much more on this. And it's inflammatory to the ME trade. Which is an outstanding technical trade, squeezing all those db's in there. I feel bad for ME's like Bob Katz. He often talks about trying to get artists to compress less.

I still think there is a role for ME's, it's a vital aspect of audio. It's just lost it's direction. Artists choose the direction and the ME takes it there and I think the artist is choosing something weird, something loud for maximum feedback potential. But sacrificing clarity and subtle complexity for it. Making it a bit narcissistic.

Not even intentionally, just that everyone else is doing it

peace
Even if it's just for loudness, the human brain tricks you into thinking that Louder=Better. It's weird, it doesn't make sense, but it's a scientific fact.

Mastering can be the glue that holds the whole thing together. I produce and write songs professionally and I can tell you that after A/Bing my pre-Mastering mixes to the mastered ones, the mastered ones SOUND better. They're more cohesive because everything is squashed into a smaller sonic space (which can be a bad thing if done wrong, see the Foo Fighters' early 2000s albums for a perfect example) and the compression makes everything fit into the mix better in relation to everything else. The bass sits in there perfectly between the drums and acoustic guitar, which you can do with simple mixing, but the mastering compression helps hold it together better IMO.

But this debate sounds like those people who are anti-inoculation. They don't have a good reason for it but they know they're against it. Mastering makes music more listenable for the environments we (or at least I) most often listen to music these days (the car, outside, etc) so for that reason alone, I think it's worth doing. If a third of the spectrum in your mix is going to get lost to background noise, why WOULDN'T you do everything you can to make sure it gets heard?

As for artists determining direction, when I'm producing for another artist as opposed to myself, I let them determine the direction. If I think it's going to sound bad, I do it, but I warn them. They're paying me, and as someone who's been on both sides of it (and fortunately I've only ever worked with producers who were willing to try things, and if they didn't like an idea, they always had a good sound musical reason for it, but we'd at least try it) if the Artist's name is going to be the biggest, then they should get what they want. If I'm just getting a production credit and they want their album to sound like shit, fine, I can always move onto another project. Artists have a shelf life, a producer can work forever if he's good.

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Old 08-12-2014, 08:23 PM   #34
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Re: I don't think there should be a big debate around genre's and labels.

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Originally Posted by DoctaMario View Post
Even if it's just for loudness, the human brain tricks you into thinking that Louder=Better. It's weird, it doesn't make sense, but it's a scientific fact.
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Originally Posted by DoctaMario View Post
I can tell you that after A/Bing my pre-Mastering mixes to the mastered ones, the mastered ones SOUND better.


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Originally Posted by DoctaMario View Post
But this debate sounds like those people who are anti-inoculation. They don't have a good reason for it but they know they're against it. Mastering makes music more listenable for the environments we (or at least I) most often listen to music these days (the car, outside, etc) so for that reason alone, I think it's worth doing. If a third of the spectrum in your mix is going to get lost to background noise, why WOULDN'T you do everything you can to make sure it gets heard?
I don't think you have a good reason FOR it. It goes both ways. But your opinion is definitely more popular haha. I just think it's like the 7 monkeys.

There are 7 monkeys, a ladder and some bananas.
Every time a monkey goes up, all the other monkeys get ice water thrown on them.
After time, the monkeys learn to beat any monkey who tries to climb the ladder. In fear of getting ice watered.

Then the ice bucket is taken away.
Still, no attempted to ascend the ladder, out of fear and group punishment.

Well, one monkey is substituted for a new monkey. Who promptly goes to ascend the ladder. He is then promptly beaten by the other, "smarter" monkeys until he learns not to try it again.

Eventually all monkeys have been substituted, and still no ascent to the bananas. Self government which only serves to restrict the community, based off old sentiments and ideals.

These traits have also been observed in humans. We tend to manufacture restriction which only reside in our collective conscience. In this case, the restriction resides in the fact we want our music heard, so the pressures to make it louder are fairly great. Everyone else is doing it, Ect,. ect.


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As for artists determining direction, when I'm producing for another artist as opposed to myself, I let them determine the direction. If I think it's going to sound bad, I do it, but I warn them. They're paying me, and as someone who's been on both sides of it (and fortunately I've only ever worked with producers who were willing to try things, and if they didn't like an idea, they always had a good sound musical reason for it, but we'd at least try it) if the Artist's name is going to be the biggest, then they should get what they want. If I'm just getting a production credit and they want their album to sound like shit, fine, I can always move onto another project. Artists have a shelf life, a producer can work forever if he's good.
Can't disagree with any of that.

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Old 08-12-2014, 08:33 PM   #35
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Re: I don't think there should be a big debate around genre's and labels.

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I just think it's like the 7 monkeys.

There are 7 monkeys, a ladder and some bananas.
Every time a monkey goes up, all the other monkeys get ice water thrown on them.
After time, the monkeys learn to beat any monkey who tries to climb the ladder. In fear of getting ice watered.

Then the ice bucket is taken away.
Still, no attempted to ascend the ladder, out of fear and group punishment.

Well, one monkey is substituded for a new monkey. Who promtly goes to ascend the ladder. He is then promptly beaten by the other, "smarter" monkeys until he learns not to try it again.

Eventually all monkeys have been substituted, and still no ascent to the bananas. Self government which only serves to restrict the community, based off old sentiments and ideals.

These traits have also been observed in humans. We tend to manufacture restriction which only reside in our collective conscience. In this case, the restriction resides in the fact we want our music heard, so the pressures to make it louder are fairly great. Everyone else is doing it, Ect,. ect.
so what previously required loudness and is now not present?

i swear youre the biggest bell end to come to this forum for a couple of years

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Old 08-12-2014, 08:46 PM   #36
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Re: I don't think there should be a big debate around genre's and labels.

I read it more like "the standard for loudness has gotten higher and higher over time and now it's just insane" but I might my projecting my own thoughts about loudness war
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:49 PM   #37
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Re: I don't think there should be a big debate around genre's and labels.

Let's not forget the importance of a second set of ears. After I've listened to something I've made 100 times over the course of making it all objectivity, by virtue of the listens and the simple fact that my opinion of something I've made will always be colored, is thrown out the window.

Also never mind loudness its great to have that second trained individual give it a wash just for the simple task of getting everything leveled on a track to track basis. I guess that assumes we're talking albums here as opposed to one offs, though.

And as for the creators "vision" whenever I've sent something off for this purpose I much prefer to send it to someone I trust enough to not have to give any direction at all and just let the chips fall as they may. But that involves admitting that I might not actually know best and a certain level of releasing control which, for some, could be a hard thing to do I guess.

A good ME will make what you have sent all the more transparent so if you don't like what you're hearing upon return I'd dare say the problem lies in an earlier stage. That or your ME ain't worth his salt and perhaps you need different contacts.



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Old 08-12-2014, 08:50 PM   #38
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Re: I don't think there should be a big debate around genre's and labels.

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The only reason I bring this up is because there's a phenomenon on Youtube where the general fans always get into great arguments over the specifics of the songs label.

Then there is the more immediate and personal issue. A lot of the time when I share my music with labels, their reply is that my music is good but it doesn't fit a specific genre.
They tell me they're going to send my music to a mastering engineer and I tell them that goes against my principles as an artist. I don't really believe in it. Most of the time they can't handle that.


I know that sounds crazy but I've gotten that a lot. We can argue over my principles, or the semantics of it all but the point is a lot of the time your music needs to "fit" in a "box" so to speak, in order to get any traction for maximum feedback potential (that's what you want right? Or just leave it all to never be heard).

I'm simply addressing that issue and asking what you guys think. Just wanted to clarify that.
I thinl you should go to these people personally and have a long discourse with them while they're bound and gagged and have iv drip speedballing caffeine and lsd ya feel then they'll know what you're all about and you'll be a multiple felon

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FunkMasterBrown (08-12-2014)
Old 08-12-2014, 08:52 PM   #39
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Re: I don't think there should be a big debate around genre's and labels.

YES. The Cure. I was going nuts trying to remember who it was lol.

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lolirl (09-12-2014)
Old 08-12-2014, 08:52 PM   #40
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Re: I don't think there should be a big debate around genre's and labels.

so.... mastering is only for electronic music? I'm pretty sure all my jazz cds were mastered and I'm also pretty sure they didn't go for loudness

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deadmau7 (09-12-2014)
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